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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
7619
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Posted - 2014.12.28 23:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
I won't speak about armor versus shield so much as the perspective of the two from an Assault point of view.
Armor does not "triumph" over shields. It's all about preference and the only time Armor truly triumphs over Shields, if such a thing existed, is in the Sentinel department where the benefits of stacking HP are so incredibly high that going for anything else just isn't as worthwhile. When your options are Biotics/EWAR/Armor/Shield on a Sentinel... You can kind of imagine where the obvious choice is going to be.
I rolled Gallente Assault since Uprising 1.0. Switched to Minmatar Assault with a respec in 1.9 and have never been happier. I am living proof that sometimes the playstyle you want isn't the playstyle you're good with. Honest to god, I hate the Gallente Assault now and I sort of regret ever speccing into it.
I know a lot of people are saying that the Minmatar Assault is the new FotM but I think this is just a handful of Combat Scouts moving over to Min Assault for that happy midground, which I'm totally 100% cool with because that means that the meta has shifted in a very healthy way considering that the Min Assault is basically a mix between an Assault and a Scout in my eyes.
All in all, Gallente Assault, IMO, takes a lot more skill than it's honestly worth. It's such a niche suit now that it's just not worth running, I feel. Mostly because of the fact that the bonuses are useless (all assaults get the fitting bonus, dispersion only applies to two weapons (AR and Ion Pistol) which already have sharpshooter skills to reduce dispersion). So you're really only going to spec into Gallente Assault for regen capabilities and marginally faster speed over the Amarr assault. Both of which are totally usurped by Caldari and Minmatar Assaults, which thrive on both aspects. The only other reason you wind up running Gallente Assault is if you're a would-be role-player like myself, Sgt Kirk, or Cat Merc.
Aeon's Links
In an effort to be "positive" I will agree to everything CCP does.
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
7622
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Posted - 2014.12.29 00:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:And I can agree to Aeon's statement.
Gallente Assault is decent but there are much better suits to use for Assault.
Right.
It essentially comes down to this:
Armor tanking is for players who aren't quite experts on strafing and gun-game, and that's totally fine. It creates a bridge between veteran high-intensity FPS players and players who aren't quite as well versed in the fine arts of action game mobility and precision. There's nothing wrong with that and honestly, It took me a while to really pinpoint what my problems with both tanking styles were. As we (the players) become better and more well-versed in our FPS gaming abilities we start to rely less and less on advantages like that which armor stacking gives. We start to learn more advanced techniques that provide opportunities through harder gameplay styles that armor couldn't offer.
One really good example of this that is entirely anecdotal was when I realized (and somewhat taught) that forward/backward movement is much faster than side-to-side movement. However, simply moving forward/back doesn't accomplish much if you're trying to "dodge" (I use that term loosely because it's more metaphysical than anything) gunfire. "V" strafing works better with armor tanking because of the mobility reduction and once you have that down you really start to understand the nuances of how strafing in itself works.
Once we train ourselves in multiple strafing techniques we can experiment with counter strafing (strafing against what our opponent is doing) and we start to have less reliance on armor because we realize that the gains of mobility outweigh the gains of buffer HP.
To put it another way: If there is 100 damage coming at you, which is better? Dodging 35% of the rounds or tanking all of them and having 20% more HP?
Armor HP isn't the issue. The issue arrives when the negations to mobility -from- stacking armor HP are more worthwhile than mobility based gameplay options. This is why strafe speed penalties were applied to armor plates, I feel, because the negations to stacking plates weren't outweighing the benefits of running shield mobility.
EDIT: There are a few exceptions to this sort of meta, however, and it outlines the basis for why so many players have issues with the Shotgun/HMG meta that has perpetuated since earlier in the year. Shotguns, being high alpha damage, often go hand-in-hand with EWAR and cloaking which strafing and mobility cannot defend well against. Neither, then, does it defend well against HMGs which completely negate mobility due to their high rate of fire. Essentially, both of those weapons (and the meta involved with them) put an end to the old era of the Assault / Combat Logi proliferation because it resulted in less gun game and more focus on high alpha/rate of fire to negate those old ideals.
Aeon's Links
In an effort to be "positive" I will agree to everything CCP does.
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
7624
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 05:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:And I can agree to Aeon's statement.
Gallente Assault is decent but there are much better suits to use for Assault. Right. It essentially comes down to this: Armor tanking is for players who aren't quite experts on strafing and gun-game, and that's totally fine. It creates a bridge between veteran high-intensity FPS players and players who aren't quite as well versed in the fine arts of action game mobility and precision. There's nothing wrong with that and honestly, It took me a while to really pinpoint what my problems with both tanking styles were. As we (the players) become better and more well-versed in our FPS gaming abilities we start to rely less and less on advantages like that which armor stacking gives. We start to learn more advanced techniques that provide opportunities through harder gameplay styles that armor couldn't offer. One really good example of this that is entirely anecdotal was when I realized (and somewhat taught) that forward/backward movement is much faster than side-to-side movement. However, simply moving forward/back doesn't accomplish much if you're trying to "dodge" (I use that term loosely because it's more metaphysical than anything) gunfire. "V" strafing works better with armor tanking because of the mobility reduction and once you have that down you really start to understand the nuances of how strafing in itself works. Once we train ourselves in multiple strafing techniques we can experiment with counter strafing (strafing against what our opponent is doing) and we start to have less reliance on armor because we realize that the gains of mobility outweigh the gains of buffer HP. To put it another way: If there is 100 damage coming at you, which is better? Dodging 35% of the rounds or tanking all of them and having 20% more HP? Armor HP isn't the issue. The issue arrives when the negations to mobility -from- stacking armor HP are more worthwhile than mobility based gameplay options. This is why strafe speed penalties were applied to armor plates, I feel, because the negations to stacking plates weren't outweighing the benefits of running shield mobility. EDIT: There are a few exceptions to this sort of meta, however, and it outlines the basis for why so many players have issues with the Shotgun/HMG meta that has perpetuated since earlier in the year. Shotguns, being high alpha damage, often go hand-in-hand with EWAR and cloaking which strafing and mobility cannot defend well against. Neither, then, does it defend well against HMGs which completely negate mobility due to their high rate of fire. Essentially, both of those weapons (and the meta involved with them) put an end to the old era of the Assault / Combat Logi proliferation because it resulted in less gun game and more focus on high alpha/rate of fire to negate those old ideals. Only thing is armor-tanked suits don't have to slower than its shield counterparts. Compared to minmatar, everyone is slow, right? But cal and gal both have the same mobility. I don't know about others but my gal suits aren't slower than my cal suits and if they are, it's only by a fraction. Cal suits aren't fast...they just have good shield regen. So, the strafe point, doesn't really apply. But I see the points that you are making and you are valid in most. How I view Gal assault suits as far as playstyle goes, are suits that will deal high damage and able to take a beating. Those are the suits that you'll be hitting those objectives with. With min, it's more about hitting and running....cal, I suggest you stay behind cover and camp. Amarr, I would use for defense, holding positions/objectives, area denial. But at the end of the day, being able to customize your fit to what you like is what makes Dust awesome for me. Maybe you don't want to speed tank but dual tank with the min assault. Or, maybe you want high reps (30hps+) on your gal assault to allow you to recover much faster. Going off on a tangent...stopping now
Yeah, no, I wasn't saying that Armor vs Shield is going to win in the 1-v-1. Toe-to-toe? Yes, armor will win, because that is what it is designed for. High buffer with option to fit high damage is a recipe for destruction in the 1-v-1. This is where Armor excels and it is entirely by design.
The only time you can ever say that the Gal Assault has the same speed as Caldari is in the eventuality that you are only using ferroscales and repair modules which not only neuters the amount of buffer you can have it's basically wasting low slots. In any other case (plates/reactives) you are reducing your speed and this is casualty of being an armor tanker. Running ferros and repairers, you'll be able to get similar EHP and speed as a Caldari but no-where near the same kind of regeneration and utility. This is why I get antsy whenever people say "Gal and Cal have the same speed" because it's only true in niche, silly cases where you are basically castrating yourself to suit the argument.
Aeon's Links
In an effort to be "positive" I will agree to everything CCP does.
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
7631
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Posted - 2014.12.29 14:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
BRUTAL TRON wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Buwaro Draemon wrote:You do know that Rattati's preffered race is Gallente right? He even said so when he was introduced as the new Dev responsible for Dust's management. So yeah, if there is going to be a suit dedicated to Rattati of course it should be Gallente That is my point as well..of course it's the preferred race. He knows what the suit is capable of because he's behind the scenes. It's not his preferred suit because it looks better. But because it's more effective You know Rattati preferred Gallente back when most Gallente stuff was ****. Hell, he brought Gallente out of the Dark ages of complete ****** weapons and suits. Plasma Cannon, fixed. Assault Rifles, improved. Suits, improved. Regen, installed. Now, if you wanted to make an argument for favorites I should direct you to the race that have the most BPOs. This race has damn near more BPOs than all the other races combined. Now that's some hardcore favoritism. He did all that for the gallente which is nice but he dislikes the gallente ads and small rail turret. He even said it in another post a month ago.. so he may have chosen the gallente race for the dropsuit and weaponry not for the complete purpose which includes the gallente ads, lav and tank.
There's not much to choose as far as LAVs. They get you from point A to point B. Dropships? Gallente Dropship is kinda abyssmal. A flying brick with a hybrid bonus, one being an ultra short range automatic that can't hit anything and the other being an ultra long range automatic that can't hit anything. Tanks? Dual hardener Gunnlogi will usually best any Madrugar fit. At the very least be able to disengage and get back to the redline faster.
So, dropsuit and weaponry..? Arguably the only thing the Gallente have going for them in the first place.
Aeon's Links
In an effort to be "positive" I will agree to everything CCP does.
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
7634
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 17:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:And I can agree to Aeon's statement.
Gallente Assault is decent but there are much better suits to use for Assault. Right. It essentially comes down to this: Armor tanking is for players who aren't quite experts on strafing and gun-game, and that's totally fine. It creates a bridge between veteran high-intensity FPS players and players who aren't quite as well versed in the fine arts of action game mobility and precision. There's nothing wrong with that and honestly, It took me a while to really pinpoint what my problems with both tanking styles were. As we (the players) become better and more well-versed in our FPS gaming abilities we start to rely less and less on advantages like that which armor stacking gives. We start to learn more advanced techniques that provide opportunities through harder gameplay styles that armor couldn't offer. One really good example of this that is entirely anecdotal was when I realized (and somewhat taught) that forward/backward movement is much faster than side-to-side movement. However, simply moving forward/back doesn't accomplish much if you're trying to "dodge" (I use that term loosely because it's more metaphysical than anything) gunfire. "V" strafing works better with armor tanking because of the mobility reduction and once you have that down you really start to understand the nuances of how strafing in itself works. Once we train ourselves in multiple strafing techniques we can experiment with counter strafing (strafing against what our opponent is doing) and we start to have less reliance on armor because we realize that the gains of mobility outweigh the gains of buffer HP. To put it another way: If there is 100 damage coming at you, which is better? Dodging 35% of the rounds or tanking all of them and having 20% more HP? Armor H EDIT: There are a few exceptions to this sort of meta, however, and it outlines the basis for why so many players have issues with the Shotgun/HMG meta that has perpetuated since earlier in the year. Shotguns, being high alpha damage, often go hand-in-hand with EWAR and cloaking which strafing and mobility cannot defend well against. Neither, then, does it defend well against HMGs which completely negate mobility due to their high rate of fire. Essentially, both of those weapons (and the meta involved with them) put an end to the old era of the Assault / Combat Logi proliferation because it resulted in less gun game and more focus on high alpha/rate of fire to negate those old ideals. Only thing is armor-tanked suits don't have to slower than its shield counterparts. Compared to minmatar, everyone is slow, right? But cal and gal both have the same mobility. I don't know about others but my gal suits aren't slower than my cal suits and if they are, it's only by a fraction. How I view Gal assault suits as far as playstyle goes, are suits that will deal high damage and able to take a beating. Those are the suits that you'll be hitting those objectives with. With min, it's more about hitting and running....cal, I suggest you stay behind cover and camp. Amarr, I would use for defense, holding positions/objectives, area denial. But at the end of the day, being able to customize your fit to what you like is what makes Dust awesome for me. Maybe you don't want to speed tank but dual tank with the min assault. Or, maybe you want high reps (30hps+) on your gal assault to allow you to recover much faster. Going off on a tangent...stopping now Yeah, no, I wasn't saying that Armor vs Shield is going to win in the 1-v-1. Toe-to-toe? Yes, armor will win, because that is what it is designed for. High buffer with option to fit high damage is a recipe for destruction in the 1-v-1. This is where Armor excels and it is entirely by design. The only time you can ever say that the Gal Assault has the same speed as Caldari is in the eventuality that you are only using ferroscales and repair modules which not only neuters the amount of buffer you can have it's basically wasting low slots. In any other case (plates/reactives) you are reducing your speed and this is casualty of being an armor tanker. Running ferros and repairers, you'll be able to get similar EHP and speed as a Caldari but no-where near the same kind of regeneration and utility. This is why I get antsy whenever people say "Gal and Cal have the same speed" because it's only true in niche, silly cases where you are basically castrating yourself to suit the argument. Gal assault gets 4.5HP/s by default. You can get maybe 15 HP/sec (without delay) with one pepper,right? That still leaves you with more HP than a cal using one energizer. 4 ferroscale plates is still more than 800 HP plus shields. Or you can stack all ferroscale with a triage if you need a quick boost. Stacking 800HP or 900HP of armor is just overkill. So, there is no real sacrifice to maintain the same speed as a cal assault. Not to mention, the cal assault suit really isn't that fast to begin with. One can have a very good and practical gallente suit with no movement penalties. Also, trying to get shield regeneration like a cal is like a cal trying to stack armor and rep rate. And maybe it isn't appealing to agree with me in this thread, lol, but you are saying what I have been saying all this time in your first paragraph. People are trying hard not to admit it for whatever reason. All I've been saying is that its design has the advantage in 1v1 situations. Not asking for a nerf, just stating the obvious. However, making damage mods available for low slots as well as high slots will help even the playing field.
I stopped paying attention at the noticeable lack of mention toward shield regen capabilities and sheer utility fitting prowess.
Aeon's Links
In an effort to be "positive" I will agree to everything CCP does.
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